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Legal Tear Gas Alternatives

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Cheapshots, Apr 22, 2017.

  1. Cheapshots

    Cheapshots New Member

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    As someone who plans to take to the water if the worst should ever happen I was thinking about offensive boarding actions. I came to the conclusion that tear gas grenades are the ideal tool for the job being able to effectively debilitate quite quickly someone while very rarely doing lasting damage.

    Negotiations sometimes fail, your enemy may have sufficient water and food to last a long siege. Most vessels tend to have lots of tight little stairwells and corridors that open up into larger rooms leaving anyone attacking at a serious disadvantage making storming a vessel difficult. Burn a vessel seems excessive, it isn’t a nice way to go and you can’t be certain there aren’t innocent people in there. Plus you’ll probably burn whoever you came to rescue or whatever you came to take if that was your objective. Chemical weapons that someone could potentially make easily don’t tend to be as clean as tear gas, quicklime bombs for example are nasty stuff, they often cause permeate damage to the lungs, throat and eyes, and are potentially lethal. Once again there’s no way of targeting it for specific people so you risk murdering some poor kid.

    So tear gas grenades are the best option, they can be deployed without risking yourself and you can quickly clear a vessel with minimum risk to innocent people, the vessel and anything within it. Unfortunately they aren’t legal. I’ve seen the spray cans that are legal to use here but I’m more thinking of something you could clear out a room with without exposing yourself. Is there chemical I could legal obtain though reasonably means and deploy by being thrown or quickly deployed though a tube? If someone were to potentially strap a few spray can together with a small quantity of black powder would that create the desired effect? A legal alternative to tear gas would also be useful on land for clearing a small building or maybe a large van as well as on the water.
     
  2. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    How bad do you want to obtain them?

    There are ways but its long.
     
  3. lonewolf

    lonewolf Administrator Staff Member

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    sounds a bit excessive, most if not all of these things are illegal, even prepper spray is illegal in the UK( a friend of mine was picked up by the Police for possession of pepper spray) so how do you get a stock of something like this before the off? and you may never need to use it, the survival rate would likely be so low.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  4. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    I agree with LW actually , Although I have the knowledge to make some CS gas and some other alternatives the production vs probability factor is far too high to be a viable concern.
     
  5. Cheapshots

    Cheapshots New Member

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    Under the circumstance I'd say that the alternative is significantly worse. If your choice is firing a ship with everyone aboard or using a non-lethal weapon I'd say the tear gas has the advantage. Sure you're fairly unlikely to be in a situation where its necessary to clear a vessel or small building but its by far the best way of going about it.
     
  6. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    Ok I'll bite.

    Lets just face the fact that CS gas is a fairly advanced technology - Yes I could knock some up but then how to administer and deliver it? Do you have an answer to that?

    Lets also just acknowledge it can't be purchased. So its either illegal possession of a rare source item or you are saying you are going to make and store ( as its stability will diminish over time ) in case a massive event does happen and you happen to find a Ship and it needs to be defended...


    There are options for commercially available low yield flash bangs and smoke grenades ready to go available for use in the Airsoft and Paintball scene

    https://www.airsoftworld.net/pyrotechnics/smokes

    In theory you could cannabilise these and use them as a delivery system - but really??


    Interesting side note the taking and re-taking of a Ship is such a tactical knightmare that the SBS specifically train for it on non serviceable ships as it poses the greatest consideration due to metal bulkheads , small CQB fighting and multiple entry and exit points.
     
  7. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    Also , how are you suggesting you take the ship or defend it? I mean with what actual tool/weapon/firearm? do you currently possess anything?
     
  8. lonewolf

    lonewolf Administrator Staff Member

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    your in Wiltshire, cheapshots, are you near the sea? do you have practical experience of boats, sailing and navigation?
    me, i'm in the middle of the north devon countryside, far enough away from the coast to make the whole exercise a non starter, plus I know nothing about boats and I hate the sea!!:rofl:
     
  9. Cheapshots

    Cheapshots New Member

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    I get what you mean about the instability of them being a problem and i'll be honest I don't have a solution to that so it isn't ideal. The problem of most vessels being a nightmare to storm is what i'm trying to get around, if your enemy is armed (which they probably are if you've got into a fight with them) the only way you can hope to storm that kind of vessel is by aggressively entering multiple unusual entry points like skylights and outnumbering your enemy. That's why I think that without being able to deploy a thrown weapon it isn't a practical way to go about it.

    "On the subject of weapons I am currently working towards getting my firearms license and I haven't decided exactly what I'll try to get when I do but probably a hunting rifle or carbine. I am also practice HEMA so I have a number of historical weapons of sufficient quality to be used in a real fight, for preventing someone from boarding the crow's foot is my best option and in a smaller space my hanger or a special type of short sword would work best.

    your in Wiltshire, cheapshots, are you near the sea? do you have practical experience of boats, sailing and navigation?
    me, i'm in the middle of the north devon countryside, far enough away from the coast to make the whole exercise a non starter, plus I know nothing about boats and I hate the sea!!:rofl:" Well currently i'm not particularly near the sea but i'm close to the summerset boarder so its not too far a drive to get to where i'm moored. Yes I have about 9 years experience sailing, I know how to navigate without GPS systems but i'm pretty poor at it compared to my wife :). If you do want to try to start sailing there maybe a lake near you where you can try dingy sailing which is significantly cheaper to start with and great fun whether you plan to incorporate it into a survival strategy or not.
     
  10. lonewolf

    lonewolf Administrator Staff Member

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    firearms are okay up to a point, but when we do get into a collapse event anyone with ammo will be left with what they can store, like anything else we store this if finite, unless your into reloading or black powder, once its all gone its gone for good.
    I recently attended the Medieval Fayre at Glastonbury Abbey, some of the weapons they had, both firearms and others, had to be seen, I managed to get myself a Viking type axe/hatchet/tomahawk for a ridiculously cheap price.
    anything like that up your way?
     
  11. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    Firearms are great! up to the point where one person is alive ( tends to be the guy with firearm ) and the other isn't. ( tends to be the one who hasn't )

    There is a reason they are the pinnacle arm of choice for combat and that is its allows one an advantage over distance and time whilst being a force multiplier. Yes Ammunition is finite but realistically it won't be endless high volume firefights it will be a force deterrent.
     
  12. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    Ok 1) You ( and I'm quoting ) ' entering multiple unusual entry points like skylights and and outnumbering your enemy' - So who is WE???? I respectfully suggest you focus more on the basics and fundamentals rather than worry about a extremely rare ( fantasy ) based scenario.

    Get the basics covered -Do you already have the basics covered? If so tell me what you have and to what extent your knowledge covers it.

    I tend to be a supporter of prepper types seeking their Firearms , but if your tilting towards you hypothetical situation a Shotgun will cover CQB needs in very short order - there is a reason Shotguns have been used by the tactical pointman since the Trench warfare of the Somme , Vietnam , Iraq , Afghanistan Special Operations and everywhere else.

    And the benefit is you only need a SHOTGUN CERTIFICATE rather than a Firearms licence for a basic Shotgun.

    HEMA does interest me , I've be studying Libre fighting and F&S style combatives for a while..
     
  13. lonewolf

    lonewolf Administrator Staff Member

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    depends on where one is at the time I suppose but I think in a firefight nobody wins really, I mean if one is the "winner" could still be seriously injured, something i'm very keen to avoid,any kind of arms I have will be more geared towards hunting and quiet hunting at that rather than some kind of Rambo event which the OP seems to favour:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  14. ystranc

    ystranc Well-Known Member

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    Most of the time shotguns are used in close quarters for the stopping power of the shot, basically this means that the maximum amount of energy is transferred to the target but they're pretty useless at ranges over about 40m as the pellets disperse too widely to transfere that energy effectively.
    Shotguns are noisy and as such they attract unwanted attention.
    While a shotgun certificate is supposed to be easier to get anyone can apply for a firearm licence if the can show a reasonable need to own one and can store it securely, you can then apply for a combined shot gun and firearm certificate.
    My rifle makes no more noise then a bow because I use subsonic rounds with a silencer. Nearly all the noise is from bullet strike, 1000 rounds fit in a space the size of a house brick. It is a sporting firearm made for hunting not tactical but I can easily get a 4" group at 100m
     
  15. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be only looking at Shotguns utilizing birdshot. Buckshot and Slug extend the range massively. Waxed slugs are also easy and cheap to make.

    Don't know if i'd agree that a FAC is just as easy to obtain as a SGC . Certain things do limit it.
     
  16. ystranc

    ystranc Well-Known Member

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    In the uk you need a full firearms certificate to buy sabot rounds or solis slugs the full range of shot is available but the real heavy stuff is hard to find. The largest shot commonly available is numbe 4

    If you can demonstrate a need for a firearm certificate they can't legally decline you, if they try you can appeal.
     
  17. ystranc

    ystranc Well-Known Member

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    i guess you can tell I'm not a fan of shotguns;)
     
  18. Prime

    Prime Well-Known Member

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    That's ok , I shoot pretty much every platform and to me they all have merits but equally weaknesses.

    Shotgun is a good multifunction tool. And at close to medium ranges a devastating weapon if you know how to quickly feed it.
     
  19. ystranc

    ystranc Well-Known Member

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    ive done my fair share of loading at driven shoots and played with a few automatic FAC shotguns...I just prefer rifles, it's the feeling of complete control.
     
  20. Marwood

    Marwood Active Member

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    Pepper spray can be made from chillies and black pepper.. Chop them up into an ordinary plant sprayer or anything else you can find.. Perfume bottles etc etc it will maybe be at full strength for two.weeks
    But still handy to keep.around the house or in a pocket when out and about...!
     
    ystranc likes this.